--- title: "Tesla's SpaceX-Powered Roadster: Flying Cars, Play, and the Future of Innovation" podcast: "Modem Futura" episode: "Episode 108" kind: transcript hosts: "Sean Leahy and Andrew Maynard" date: 2026-10-27 audio: https://cdn.simplecast.com/media/audio/transcoded/fca32cee-ef4c-4b50-82e5-4c768318a8c1/018f87c3-4d42-4bc0-9d66-53873b51ec68/episodes/audio/group/8b41ca09-4226-4a7e-91b7-6ff0ca772300/group-item/25051e49-e762-4a97-a3b1-eb534994d91a/128_default_tc.mp3?aid=rss_feed&feed=3frRI0HN show_notes: https://text.futureofbeinghuman.com/modemfutura/108-tesla-s-spacex-powered-roadster-flying-cars-play-and-the-fut.html mirror: https://text.futureofbeinghuman.com/modemfutura/108-tesla-s-spacex-powered-roadster-flying-cars-play-and-the-fut-transcript.html --- # Tesla's SpaceX-Powered Roadster: Flying Cars, Play, and the Future of Innovation *Full transcript* Modem Futura · Episode 108 · October 27, 2026 · 56 min · Hosts: Sean Leahy and Andrew Maynard · about 11,100 words Show notes: · Listen: [MP3 audio](https://cdn.simplecast.com/media/audio/transcoded/fca32cee-ef4c-4b50-82e5-4c768318a8c1/018f87c3-4d42-4bc0-9d66-53873b51ec68/episodes/audio/group/8b41ca09-4226-4a7e-91b7-6ff0ca772300/group-item/25051e49-e762-4a97-a3b1-eb534994d91a/128_default_tc.mp3?aid=rss_feed&feed=3frRI0HN) · [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/teslas-spacex-powered-roadster-flying-cars-play-and/id1771688480?i=1000798314897&uo=4) · [Spotify (show)](https://open.spotify.com/show/3eFl4hY4t1qTCWE2Bxotrg) · [YouTube (video)](https://www.youtube.com/@ModemFutura) --- **Andrew**: Oh, the red button is on. **Sean**: Yep, that's gonna be like the new way to start everything, is like, verify, the red button is on. Yes, it is. We have adequate hours of runtime. Yes. And also, you know, as I was sitting here, it's like, and also I feel like this, I'm compelled to revisit our chemistry lesson. **Andrew**: So, I've got to say, this was deeply embarrassing this morning. So for anybody that's listened to our previous episode, I apologize deeply for our seeming hallucinations around chemistry. And I hadn't realized, so this was something that just came up in the flow of the banter, where we were talking about water, and to my utter shame, I started talking about H2O2, which is, of course, hydrogen peroxide, but then you jumped in. **Sean**: So, okay, so the best part is, okay, we've had a string here of, yeah, one was a recording issue, two is then this chemistry issue. But what's hilarious is, and I didn't catch it at all until I was in the editing deck and I caught it, which was the chemical composition of water was described as H2O2. By me, the scientist in the room. But, you know, again, anything, it's fine because it's when you're going live without ever thinking. But the funny part was, is that I had already in my mind was thinking about hydrogen peroxide because it's very close to H2O, because it's H2O2. And you had described, and I missed it. So you put another H on it. And then I said, yeah, it's like H3O2. And I'm like, I don't even know what the hell that is. If it's even, I don't even think it must be an ionized something or another. **Andrew**: So this is where you can tell we're authentic. No editing, post-editing whatsoever. Warts and all. No. That will live in infamy. **Sean**: And just to put it out there, to ensure you understand the authenticity of these, is there is, I have every tool at my disposal. I could have easily changed everything in our own voices. And I bet nobody would have noticed, but I can't do that because that would be editorializing what we did. And there's just, yeah. **Andrew**: But it was really funny. So to use another thing at the moment, you can see everything. **Sean**: That's right. You can see it all. It's all there. Maybe no intentionally misleading anything. But I still think for me, the funniest part was, is in my mind, as you were starting to talk about the chemical composition of water, which we fully understand is H2O. But as you were saying, my mind was already thinking of hydrogen peroxide, to which then you described hydrogen peroxide. And then I still went on it. And I'm like, maybe we're just that in tune. We're like, I was thinking hydrogen peroxide and you picked it up. **Andrew**: Well, you got the internal model now externalized. **Sean**: That's right. **Andrew**: Between us with the telepathy. **Sean**: Normally that's filtered by common sense before it leaves your mouth, but not on Modem Futura. Anyway— **Andrew**: So if you're intrigued, go and listen to the first few minutes of the previous episode. **Sean**: Yeah. **Andrew**: And have a bit of a laugh. **Sean**: And if you did listen to it, I'm curious if you caught it or not, or if it's just our own ears that caught it. And if you caught it, I would challenge you, be the first to let everybody know by giving us a, put it in a review and say, "Aha, I got it. I, you know, I found the blunder. These fools don't know that water consists of H2O. I bathe every day in H2O, too. We're 70% of it," or whatever. But yeah, I thought that was quite funny because, again, and it's funny because as we were recording it didn't ever occur to me that we had— it was just one of those things where it's just, I don't know, there it is. So now the challenge will be, dear listeners, what misspoken gaffes can you find today? Because there's probably going to be a few. **Andrew**: It's a case of— want hallucinations? AI, eat your heart out. **Sean**: That's right. That's right. You got nothing on me, baby. We could do this all day. Yeah. So anyway, so anyway, I thought, I think today we've got a little bit of a potpourri of things because you've brought something. I've brought something. Yes. And just in case, because we haven't done them in a while, I do have a selection of Futures Improv in the hopper, a fresh crop that I have not even reviewed yet. **Andrew**: So actually the question is whether we sort of do everything together or whether we break this up. Do the serious stuff and then we'll have the next episode. We'll see how we go. We'll see how the flow goes. **Sean**: And I'll keep my eye on the timer. We'll see if we can actually, you know, pull a tight one off here. **Andrew**: Mind you, knowing the subjects you're going to bring up, we could actually do an improv around one of those. **Sean**: Absolutely, 100%. So, okay, why don't we pause there and we'll jump back in and we'll bring in— I'll leave a teaser of: we'll soar to new experiences with flying cars, perhaps. **Andrew**: Sounds good. **Announcer**: Initializing waveform. Modulating signals for transmission. Exploring the possible, probable, and preferable futures. **Sean**: Welcome to Modem Futura. I left a bigger gap this time. Anyway, I'm Sean Leahy, joined by my amazing co-host extraordinaire— **Andrew**: Andrew Maynard. **Sean**: And that means you're listening to Modem Futura, the show that explores the intersection of technology, society, and the possible, probable, and preferable futures, asking deep questions like, what will it mean to be human in the future? And will we finally have our flying cars? So, no, we're not. So, of course, I'm— **Andrew**: But we're getting closer. **Sean**: We're getting closer. Getting closer. And I'm cheekily sort of referring to the very recently debuted Tesla Roadster, if I got the term, the model number correct, which, of course, has been met by all kinds of amazing PR and coverage. Because, of course, the car went upside down and then flew off like a Hot Wheels car. **Andrew**: So, full disclosure, I haven't actually seen this. I saw the social media headlines, but I had way more interesting things to do. So I didn't actually dive into this. I just thought it was another Elon Musk stunt. So you have, so you can describe this. **Sean**: It is. And so I'm pulling up the website too, because their language around this. **Andrew**: They've actually got a website for this thing? **Sean**: On the website, yes. Now, whether you can buy this or not. So anyway, so what it was, so I was like, let's start with the facts. Okay, so what it was, and a reminder for people who have been interested or following Tesla in general, is they had previously announced, I think it was back in 2017, They announced the Tesla Roadster that never, we're still waiting on. **Andrew**: And of course, the very first thing that Elon Musk produced, or the company produced with Elon Musk, was that hyper-fast sports car. Yeah, the one that's floating out in space somewhere. **Sean**: I don't, I wonder where that is. I'm sure there's a tracker somewhere. There is a tracker somewhere, I think. So, yeah, so version two, basically, or like the production version of that Roadster, which by all accounts has always been a very tantalizing sort of, you know, prototype that's on there. because if you, again, and I can talk at length about, you know, I bought into the EV lifestyle and have been loving it. But these cars, the accel— and we'll talk about that because it's the acceleration and the power that you get out of an electric vehicle is addicting beyond belief. **Andrew**: Because everybody needs to accelerate from naught to 60 in two seconds. **Sean**: Or in this case, 0.81 seconds. And that is going to be part of the conversation. Exactly, sub-second. So anyway, so yeah, like basically, like at a glance: October— let's see, I have the date here, I'm scrolling because I've got the date written down. I think it was the 15th, I think, I can't remember now. So yeah, October 15th was the official reveal, so done at one of SpaceX's sort of proving grounds, testing grounds, or whatever. And so what they really had, which also, again, you can make this sort of accusation or comparison or whatever. It was like a child's like toy car setup. So they have this, I mean, you know, the looks, I think a lot of people were really enjoying the original design aesthetics of the originally proposed Roadster that has never yet materialized, has gone through, you know, that again, it was promised, I think, for production to have been released in 2020, which clearly, you know, checking, checking watch, we're in— late 2026. We have missed that mark. So now this is like sort of like the revised, oh, instead of that one, now we're going to do this one. The look of the car is very Cybertruck-esque in terms of... **Andrew**: Because that works so well. **Sean**: Yes. But honestly, it works. So it works better in a car form because what it does look like is it looks like an EV version of a Lamborghini. **Andrew**: I was gonna say, it's got a bit of a DeLorean vibe about it, actually. **Sean**: Yeah, and I don't think, well, in more ways than one. You know, no flux capacitor or time traveling ability. However, you could use the famous Doc Brown of, you know, line of where we're going, we don't need roads with this flying capability. **Andrew**: Because it's, what are those rockets or something in it? **Sean**: Yes. So it flies, yes. Okay, so to set the stage, so here is, we have this, like this, this new Roadster, which again, it has, I actually, as much as I really personally do not care for the styling of the Cybertruck, that same sort of very angular, sleek, metallic look, I think works in a sports car because again, it evokes, again, if you, if you look it up when you get a chance to see the visuals, but in your mind's eye, you can literally just think of like the Lambo— the latest Lamborghini you've seen or Ferrari or some of these exotic sports cars. It has that look, just very long, clean, like straight angular lines. And of course, out of the back of it, which is odd for an EV, you have what looks like four exhaust pipes, which you're like, wait a minute. An EV does not have any reason to expel exhaust, which of course comes in later into the programming here. So again, you have this cool car. It's on this track. And when I say it looks like a race car track, I mean like a Hot Wheels stunt race car track from your childhood that is like half of a loop-de-loop. **Andrew**: We're going to come back to that theme as well with Elon Musk, this idea of sort of childhood dreams. **Sean**: 100%, right? And so you have this amazing, cool-looking, like exotic supercar that is facing basically a U turned on its side. So it's half of a circle, basically, right? With a sort of like prolonged lip at the very top. So it looks like Hot Wheels or those old electric cars that could go like on a loop-de-loop. **Andrew**: Sure, yes, you've got that, yes. **Sean**: It looks like that, but it's only half of the loop, right? **Andrew**: Okay, right. **Sean**: And so the car… **Andrew**: So when you say half the loop, you mean sort of if the car went along it, it would be upside down at the top? **Sean**: Yes, so at the top of the loop, the car is at 180 degrees hanging from its wheels with the cab facing the plummet to the earth, right? **Andrew**: Right, right. **Sean**: And while this is done, okay, there's no human driver in it. It is one of those, I forget what he calls them, the… **Andrew**: Full Self-Driving things. **Sean**: Yeah, but it's the robot. It's the… **Andrew**: Oh, the Tesla bot. Was there an Optimus? **Sean**: Optimus. **Andrew**: Was there an Optimus in it? **Sean**: There was an Optimus-shaped object inside. **Andrew**: Okay. **Sean**: I think we are led to believe it's Optimus, but I don't… Again, whether it's… **Andrew**: Not just a guy in a suit. **Sean**: No, it definitely was not a human in there, but it could have been a remote-controlled version. **Andrew**: Okay, right. **Sean**: So, oh, and the other thing before I even get on, just some of the stylings of it: the glass on this thing is tinted with that same gold, like, glass tint that they use in astronauts' visors. So the whole thing is meant to, you know, and again, it's happening on SpaceX grounds. Ultimately, this thing is essentially this massive flex of the engineering between SpaceX and Tesla. But okay. So here it is. So it's facing this and it had done a couple of stunts for the whole show, but like the two big ones was this where, so it's again, you have cars, stationary right at the entrance of this loop-de-loop begins to go. And it just sort of drives, I would say, at a very slow slash normal pace up this embanked curve, which at which you're watching this, your brain starts to expect the inevitable, which is the tire spin, the car getting halfway up and starting to come down. But instead, it just continues to crawl up the embankment all the way to the— gets to the very top and stops. And holds there. Upside down for, I can't remember how long, for a moment. Before then, suddenly propelling forward while upside down in a cloud of gas, spinning around and then coming down with this massive thruster exhaust, landing safely, squarely, perfectly on all four wheels. Without any crash, you know, crazy, whatever. And then in a different demonstration, same car approaching a stack. And it was sort of like, it was like, bring out the catalog. So it was the Tesla Semi truck, the Cybertruck, basically their whole model lineup. And then had this car approach it at, again, a slower speed. And then instantly engage those same thrusters to do basically like a flip upside down over the top of these cars, landing again safely and securely on the other side of this like, you know, traffic jam, if you will. And so then you have, and of course, the first time I saw it, my initial reaction was, oh, they faked this. Because it looks so otherworldly in its engineering execution. And then you start to peel into this car. And again, okay, so then you, so that's what happened. And then, of course, you have this very typical sort of Elon Musk showmanship around, you know, the again, him just unveiling that this is the future and this is where it's going. And that, you know, if you want flying cars like we got like all this kind of stuff. But what you see then is just as you step back, you're like, OK, A, this was real. B, OK, now we need to learn more. But also, so nothing, I would say nothing is actually new about any one of those parts, except for this is like the, and I'm not a huge fan of Tesla or anything in general, because I have lots of issues with some other designs and things like that. But from just a purely like engineering science project, one of the coolest things in a car I've seen in a long time. **Andrew**: And I'm interested you went there. So yes, from everything you describe and from what I know, the fascinating thing is this is a confluence of a number of technologies. So yes, in principle, if you look at all the individual components, we've had them for a while, but it's bringing them together and controlling them with the level of finesse you need, which is impressive. So you can see immediately that this takes what SpaceX has done with their boosters. All the rocketry. So all of that control technology, which is incredibly sophisticated technology, they've now begun to miniaturize it and put it into a car. So you can see how, A, all these bits have been around for a while, and B, it would have been impossible for anybody to actually put them together in this way without today's SpaceX technology. **Sean**: Absolutely. And again, you look at this and you're like, man, so again, I have to divorce in my brain the coolness and the excitement of like— **Andrew**: How many disclaimers are we going to have here? **Sean**: Oh, so many. First of all, never try to, first of all, don't ever try to do this at home. That should go without saying. I guarantee you, even if you have whatever the latest and greatest Tesla is, you cannot drive your car upside down. Not successfully. You can do it once, but it's not going to be successful, right? But so I have to divorce my own sort of reaction to this, as being one, just the sort of excitement and raw, just adrenaline of like, this was an amazing— like the first time you see those SpaceX rockets, like, yes, or the chopstick thing, whatever, that catches them as well. Same thing, you have the same reaction where you're like, this is an amazing engineering feat, right? I get excited about this. **Andrew**: To be clear, the team of engineers that are doing this, yes, so Elon Musk is the spokesperson here, but really this is engineers doing their stuff at an exquisite level. **Sean**: Like I said, the coolest science fair project ever. But what you really see, and again, So I divorced this from the cool sort of flex of just this amazing, again, which required rocket engineers, rocket scientists, right? Required them to pull this thing off. There's the excitement of how cool that is. And then again, the reality is how cool would that be and what can we learn about that and how can we – you have to divorce that from this is a car you'll ever be able to own. It's like going to the Detroit Auto Show. I used to go to that for years, and you would just be wowed by this amazing 99% of which you will never see. **Andrew**: And you'd go back to your old sort of whatever. **Sean**: Yes, exactly. **Andrew**: But the other thing that gets me, and this is the thing that's fascinated me with so many of Musk's enterprises. And you go back to how we try and teach young students, young kids and students, and teach them to be creative, to experiment, to embrace their inner child, and to push boundaries. So, so much of education is all about do not conform, do not be boring, do not be constrained, but go back to what it was like as a child imagining things that were impossible. Except as soon as one of the world's richest people do this, everybody falls on top of him for being creative and being childlike. **Sean**: Yeah, yeah, I know. **Andrew**: But this is exactly what this is. This is a childhood dream that he has eventually got to the point where he has enough companies, enough expertise, enough money to bring into reality. **Sean**: And there is a part of this. I'll share a little bit of a personal anecdote here, because I think one of the reasons I'm so compelled by how cool this is was also, I've done this in a different scale at a different time. In a tale I like to call the mousetrap car. **Andrew**: Okay. **Sean**: So this goes back to little Sean's, I think it must've been my sophomore year of high school. You know, so what am I, 14 years old, 15 years? How old are you, sophomore year in high school? And we're taking an engineering class and it was about, there was a project that was really fun. That was, we had the whole class had to use, there was a list of materials that we had to use. And the whole point of it was to construct, to engineer it from the ground up to build a mousetrap-propelled car. **Andrew**: Okay. **Sean**: Yep. So using, like, those old-fashioned, like, wooden ones with the spring, like you see in the cartoons and all that kind of stuff. So using a mousetrap, you had to engineer— and the prescript, the unwritten rule, was everyone followed the same pathway. And people would come with different things, like— a lot of people used, and as I did, for the sort of body of the car, I used a Pinewood Derby. These little very inexpensive wooden cars that you can build for like, you know, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, whatever. And most people did the same thing, which was you build a car, you put the mousetrap on it, you attach some kind of string from the armature of the mousetrap to the axle. So as it goes, it pulls a string, the wheels move, the car goes forward. **Andrew**: That's your potential energy that then drives. **Sean**: Very classic. **Andrew**: You release it, yes. **Sean**: And you could tell in the end that that was what you were supposed to do, right? So, But little Sean was like, hey, I have an idea here. **Andrew**: Proto Elon Musk here. **Sean**: I have an idea. Everyone else, because I knew everyone else was going to do this, was going to build like the same thing, the same version, the same thing. And I said, all right, so the constraints were the actuation of the mousetrap had to in some way be responsible for the propellant of the car. So I said, well, but can't it do two things? One, it could start the car rolling, but then as it touches, could that not just connect a circuit together that would ignite a single stage model rocket engine? So little Sean in the garage was experimenting. I had everything in clamp so I could try this. I had perfected this thing. So I show up to the big day, right? It's the big day. We go outside, you know, it's in high school and we go outside to the parking lot. Everyone's excited. And our teacher had drawn some kind of like racetrack thing to measure whose could get the farthest or whatever to win the competition of the best mousetrap car. Everybody else goes, and I'm just giggling in the back, right? I didn't ask for permission. So in hindsight, bringing a rocket to school, probably not the best idea. And probably something you could not do today. But back then, rules were a lot less tight on this. So I show up, and it's like, finally time to do mine. So I set my contraption down. And so you have to imagine this wedge-shaped wooden Pinewood Derby. And I had reused like monster truck wheels for the back. And then small ones with, so this thing has this huge rake on it. **Andrew**: Right, right. With a drag car, sort of. **Sean**: Yeah. And I forget the class number. I'd have to look at it. It's either a D or a C model rocket. And so large enough to send a model rocket to like the stratosphere type thing. So I have this thing packed in there with wired up so that when, and so, and so as it goes, it's my time. So I'm like, here we go, baby. I'm like, already in my mind, I am imagining being carried out on the shoulders of, like, the class. The champion of this stuff. So what happens is we get up, it's time to go, and I'm like, all right. And everybody else did the same thing, the same thing. And they went 5, 10 feet, right? It was like, and everyone was like, oh, yay, that went 10 feet. So in my mind, I'm going, I've test fired this thing. It ain't going 10 feet. So I get there. So it works as planned. The mousetrap goes, pulls a string. The axle moves. The car goes about two feet or so before the electrical contact, wired up to a nine-volt battery, triggers the ignition for this rocket engine to which you see puff, puff, boom. This thing probably went 400 yards. Luckily, it didn't hit any cars. It was essentially a missile that flew about eight inches off the ground for about 400 yards or something before it creamed and just went skittering across the floor. **Andrew**: And were you carried off on the shoulders of your colleagues? **Sean**: No. **Andrew**: Or carried off somewhere else. **Sean**: Had this been, you know, post-2000 era, I probably would have been tackled to the ground. But I looked and I was like, this is amazing. And everyone was, I mean, there was a lot of like enthusiasm by my classmates. We're like, whoa, that was great. I got a D on that project because— **Andrew**: You didn't do the thing you were supposed to do. **Sean**: I didn't stay within my bounds. So ever since then, that has always stuck with me as this like real stick in the eye of like, I was so excited to just push the envelope as far as I could with this engineering project and then was scolded by doing so. **Andrew**: And that is exactly the lesson here. This idea that we encourage people to be creative as long as they stay within the lines. And so it's the playground approach to education. Do what— oh, the playpen. **Sean**: Playpen, yeah. **Andrew**: You do whatever you like as long as you stay within our rules. You're not allowed to go outside the rules. Whereas the playground is, you do the rocket thing. **Sean**: Yeah, or it's like— **Andrew**: As long as you don't kill anybody. **Sean**: It's like you think outside the box as long as it's pressed up right next to the edge, you know? And I was like, but I— **Andrew**: No, no, it's think outside the little box in the middle, but you dare go outside the box surrounding that. **Sean**: Think outside the third nesting doll, not the fourth or the fifth, you know? **Andrew**: Right, right, right. So this is where you've got some sort of sympathy for Elon Musk, who is, I mean, he's now big enough and rich enough and got big enough teams that he can start doing the stuff he dreams of. **Sean**: And I think this is why I love this so much, 'cause I watched this, again, like, the sped-up version of the replay was, "That's fake. Oh, it's real. That's amazing. That's my mousetrap car." Like it was, but it was the same. **Andrew**: So Elon, if you're listening, come talk to Sean. **Sean**: Hey, I would love to sit down and be like, I got some ideas. **Andrew**: What are your thoughts on single-use model rockets? **Sean**: Talking about building a bigger mousetrap. I'm like, here's what you're going to look to, SpaceX. You know what you need on that? You need a bigger mousetrap. I will be, I would be lying if I said I did not think about, I was walking down the stairs and, you know, coming downstairs today. And I was like, you know, my Mach-E doesn't have any of those boosters, but I'm like, nothing would stop me from strapping a tank to the outside. **Andrew**: Trouble is, you've got to have all of the control technology. And it's the control technology that works. But of course, there's the other side of this. And again, I haven't seen the pushback, but I'm pretty sure it's there. People saying, this is ridiculous. What a waste of money. You've got so much money, so much influence, and all you do is mess around with these stupid projects. And that is where I would push back. Because I think that there is value in doing the crazy stuff because it begins to spark that sort of set of possible ideas in people's heads, what they could do, which otherwise they've been told they can't do. **Sean**: Yeah. Well, and also, I mean, I look at this too, and I think about like, this is exactly what is missing in so much of, again, what I'm not saying is that we need to do this to commercial vehicles. What I'm saying is what we're missing is more of these engineering demonstrations that excite people. Because, again, in aeronautics, in space exploration, we have these discrete things. I mean, again, when you can launch a rocket from Earth and land it on a satellite chunk of comet debris, whatever. I mean, the engineering— **Andrew**: I was wondering where you were going there, thinking sort of, I was imagining this little CubeSat launching. **Sean**: No, I mean— no, no. **Andrew**: You're thinking about the big ones. **Sean**: The big ones. And again, that's amazing, but also that is very out of reach in more ways than one to many people, right? Again, it's not that big, but when you start having these engineering, I just call them open science fairs for grown adults in these well-funded research and development companies, actually showing off what these things can do. The amount of excitement, again, I think about myself as that sophomore in high school, I had no access to other people doing that. Again, because I was reprimanded for thinking outside. To be fair, it was probably a little dangerous. **Andrew**: But I don't know whether this still happens, but I remember growing up, and even when I was sort of fairly young in my career, I was surrounded by people where they had sort of got their spark of curiosity, especially around science, by doing the crazy stuff. The people that used to sort of build explosives at home. I mean, I worked with somebody who actually sort of created sort of mustard gas. It sounds crazy. And definitely not recommended. But there was a whole generation, generations before them, that had permission to experiment and play. Getting back to that idea of the junk playground. And sort of no boundaries. What can you do? What can you learn from what you can do? How can you push boundaries? And I'm not sure that happens so much these days, which means we somehow have taken something away from our creativity and imagination. **Sean**: Absolutely. **Andrew**: And the challenge to me is always that, going back to this idea of, we're always being told to be creative, to be imaginative. But according to somebody else's rules. So if you are creative in the way that they would like you to be, that's great. If you're creative in a way that they don't like, that is not allowed. And I do not like that. **Sean**: No, 100%. And I think that's one of those things that is at play. Which is, well, I think I mentioned this, I think last time when we were talking about the junk playground, was also, again, just this challenge of, you know, we've lost so much this concept of play that for whatever reason, it's deemed non-professional or whatever. **Andrew**: Or not serious. Not serious. You have to be serious and professional. You have to be LinkedIn-ified. You're not allowed to sort of go outside the lines of what is considered to be professional behavior. **Sean**: Exactly. And often we're met with this demand for like, well, we must be innovative. We must be, you know, all those buzzwords and terms looking for the output of play, but not allowing or nurturing that exact environment to get that exact mindset out of it. **Andrew**: And the irony, of course, being it's from play that the true innovations come. If you are constrained, you can maybe sort of do existing things slightly differently and claim that it's innovation, but it's not. You're never going to break any boundaries that way. **Sean**: No, 100%. And honestly, it's quite frustrating because to that extent where it's like, oh, we need someone to break through and then they do. And then it's like, but that wasn't, you broke through in a way that I didn't feel comfortable. **Andrew**: Right, right, right. So we're not going to accept that. But of course, this is where we muddy the waters with Elon Musk. **Sean**: Sure. **Andrew**: And this is the challenge with conversations like this because you have the concept of play, which I think is really powerful. But you're merging that with somebody who has an incredible degree of influence and power, and who, I would argue, uses it in ways that aren't healthy for society. **Sean**: Sure, yeah. **Andrew**: And so how do you disentangle that? And I so desperately wish that Elon Musk sort of didn't sort of get messed up with these uses of power, which I think are just really not helpful in any way whatsoever. **Sean**: Yeah, I know. And that's something, again, I'm not a big fan of Tesla in general. And that's more to do, well, before even pre, you know, DOGE and all those kind of things and political entanglements and all that kind of stuff. I had a lot of sort of like quality production issues with Teslas. But, you know, but that's part of the challenge too, is like decoupling that. Because again, you look at this and you're like, this is amazing. Again, just looking at the Roadster thing, because then the cold slap of reality quickly comes in, which is like, you know, how do you feel on the inevitability? Will this ever, even, and I'm saying not even the ones with all these thrusters and jets. Because to be clear, that is like this extreme version. There is a version that is modeled. That's just the regular old EV, right? **Andrew**: So the base model. **Sean**: The base model. And then there are tiers that will allow for like the jets in the back, because that's still only allowing you to move forward faster. But even that, like the secret to that is like, well, how do you do that? Well, you have to have, I think it's a giant tank of compressed, like liquid gas or whatever that then, you know, it turns from liquid to a gas. It sits right behind your head. And it's like this, you talk about having, you know, potential for kinetic disaster. And it takes up like the passenger. So it basically becomes like a one-person roadster to have all these extra tanks. And they're single fire in the sense that once you fire it once, you have to recharge it, which I saw some— **Andrew**: It's like a little SodaStream. **Sean**: Oh, yeah. **Andrew**: Once it's gone, it's gone. You've got to get another one. **Sean**: And then they're saying it's like eight to 10 hours to refill it. And it literally lasts for like, I don't know, a few seconds of use. But again, so the cool side of that, the science fair version of that is amazing. The actual real productization of that, I think that is— **Andrew**: It's really messy. **Sean**: But I come back to that is like to dangle those things out there to again, because I come back to this. I looked it up to make sure I could get the quote correct. So Jim Dator, who's a famous pioneering futurist, has a line. He has got these sort of like laws of the future. And his second law of the future is this quote of: "Any useful idea about the future should appear to be ridiculous." Again, that when we're talking about something that actually pushes us and moves us forward, that by its nature, it should be audacious, ridiculous, unfathomable at first glance, because that means it's sufficiently out there enough that it's not pressed up against inside the nesting dolls or whatever. It's not inside the playpen that, because otherwise it's not ridiculous because that means it's already here. We can already test it. We already know it. And so for that value alone, it's like, I, again, I really hope we see more of that. Yes. And, you know, and, you know, hey, if I can find a way to strap some air tank— **Andrew**: I know. I was gonna say, I'm sure this will be controversial, because I meet so many people who say, "Yes, we've got to play, but it's got to be serious play, and it's only got to focus on the things that are gonna matter to people like me." But my pushback there would be, if you constrain the play, it is no longer play. **Sean**: No. **Andrew**: It is no longer— **Sean**: Or no longer valuable play in terms of innovating for the future. And speaking of— **Andrew**: But I'm sure we're gonna get pushback. **Sean**: Well, I was gonna say, I'll add on, I'll get us some more. That's also why educational games don't work. **Andrew**: Yes. **Sean**: I mean, it's the same problem. Because they're playpens. **Andrew**: There are rules you have to follow. **Sean**: And I'll separate that to say there are as many things you can learn through playing games. **Andrew**: Yes. **Sean**: When you create an education game— **Andrew**: With learning objectives that you have to meet. **Sean**: It's not a game anymore. And if you think the child or whoever can't sniff that out in a heartbeat— **Andrew**: That's it, yes. **Sean**: And usually it's only palatable because it's like, "Well, I'm in school. I might as well play the game version of this." **Andrew**: You know, this is why people listen to Modem Futura, because they know they're not expected to learn anything. It's the secret of our success. **Sean**: Hey, you know, you come for, you know, whatever. You come here for the entertainment, I suppose. But yeah, so that was really interesting. But then again, because then again, you know, again, what the car is not, it is not a flying car, even though it's very, you're already, I guarantee you're going to hear that, you know, because, but it is also interesting because again, one of the things, we've talked about this concept quite a bit of this concept of the used future. So just backing up for people who are new to that term is this is a futures term that's often used to refer to the envisionment or the vision, just general, of a future state that is borrowing from someone else's imagination, from someone else's ideas, what have you. And oftentimes it's done subconsciously. And in sort of like there's a lot of futurists that will kind of tee off. Amy Webb is one of them who tees off on this concept of the flying car, because this is a trope that has persisted for decades. **Andrew**: At least since The Jetsons. And I don't know whether... **Sean**: Yeah, I think it goes back even farther. **Andrew**: Yeah, but it's become iconic in terms of how people think about the future. Almost everybody sort of thinks about flying cars when they think about the future. Even though... So I was going to say, okay, one final thing here. It's a ludicrous idea, but you can see the inspiration behind what Tesla are doing. The reason I say it's ludicrous is— **Sean**: It is so ridiculous. Ludicrous mode. **Andrew**: Ludicrous mode. There we are. Good connection. But the energy it takes is just ridiculous. It's not sustainable. So it's fun, it is stimulating, it's innovative, it's creative, it is catalytic in terms of how we think. But as a sensible solution to getting round, no. **Sean**: Until we've got anti-gravity devices, no. **Andrew**: Yeah. **Sean**: Yeah, well, and even things, so the other part to that, not even the rocket thrusters, was like the question, which we haven't even talked about, is how did it stay sucked to the track upside down while barely moving? Right? So again, that might— **Andrew**: Magnets. **Sean**: But see, magnets don't work because that requires there to be the actual magnetic force between, but it does work by using fans. So the concept, so it creates, so what happens is— **Andrew**: Suction fans. **Sean**: Yes, literally. So, like, here— **Andrew**: It's an inverse hovercraft. **Sean**: It is. That's exactly what it is. **Andrew**: Are you serious? **Sean**: I am dead serious. So you can kind of see in this picture, underneath the exhaust— **Andrew**: In other words, the new Tesla Roadster sucks. **Sean**: Literally. It sucks better than anything ever has. So I'm showing Andrew the picture. So you have the exhaust pipes for the pressed gas; these underneath it are the fans. Okay, so it uses what's called active aero. And this, again, this by itself is not new. There's another car, it has a funny name, and it's, like, called, like, the McMurtry Spéirling or something like that. It's a one seat like race car. It does the same thing. It uses this very high-powered extraction fan to get it to adhere to the race. So what happens is like, think of like this, like sort of rubber skirt that drops down to kind of seal the air underneath the vehicle. And then it uses a very high-powered, both between aerodynamic force and like an actual spinning fan, it sucks the air from underneath the car out, creating low pressure. So basically, you just use the physics of the higher pressure air outside of it to push the car against whatever it's on. **Andrew**: That's quite clever. **Sean**: It's really cool. And so not the Tesla, this other car called the McMurtry, something like that. It's done a demo where it drove onto like this rig and then stationary, it's just turned upside down and it just sits there for minutes, I think, upside down. **Andrew**: Of course, trying to think of an eventuality where you would need a car that sticks to an upside down road is hard to imagine, but that is where the inspiration comes from. **Sean**: Yeah, and again, like how quickly do you think you're going to put this, and if you hear this thing, I mean, it is... **Andrew**: Well, actually, I'm already thinking my garage space doubles up already. I actually sort of quadruple if you think about the wall. I guess you'd have to like keep it going. So you'd have this like intense energy burn, right? **Sean**: If the power cuts, you've got a problem. You just hear this, you just hear this clang. What was that? Two cars just sandwiched. But yeah, and so it's crazy. And watching the race car version of this go around a track is amazing because it can literally stick to the floor. **Andrew**: It literally sticks to the road. **Sean**: Right, yes. It's stuck in there. So there's no wheel spin. It's amazing. But also what's interesting is the side effect is because the ground is not a sterile thing. So it's also blowing debris and stuff out the back of it. So the cars that are following behind this thing are also getting splattered with road debris. **Andrew**: Do you remember that old kids' cartoon, "Wacky Races"? So I feel as if we need a class of racing beyond Formula One, which is basically anything goes. **Sean**: And I think, I mean, this was not a Futures Improv, but I'm like, this is a thing that— like between AI, those— I forgot the name of those robots already again. **Andrew**: Oh, the Optimus. **Sean**: Whatever, right? So you have an Optimus robot in one of these cars. Like, could we not create like a safe, sealed environment track and just go like have literal loop-de-loops and these challenges and like a pond you have to jump over and all this kind of stuff. I mean, like, you know, you could— **Andrew**: XPRIZE, eat your heart out. **Sean**: Yeah, I think you do BattleBots. People will pay for this. You know, because then think about it. If you had that first person view, you could just put on a VR headset and be in the cockpit. How cool would that be? But yeah, so it's pretty wild in that sense. But again, I think about, will these make it to your production car? No. However, that doesn't mean as a future idea of proof of concept that you wouldn't have emergency things. Like I'm not thinking like consumer cars, but also thinking about like some kind of, you know, rescue vehicles that are in these very perilous situations. Not that it would be running all the time, but you could see even sucking it to like the side. What if you like, I just thought of this, there's an accident or a crash inside of a tunnel. How do you get there? Go Men in Black style, baby, and drive on the roof and get all the way over there. **Andrew**: There we are. **Sean**: And then you can get to places that might— **Andrew**: And this is where you see the power of this sort of play. Yes, maybe it seems to be trivial and irrelevant, but it's the spinoffs that come. And you take that actually back to NASA. And I'm going to say so many things that are going to upset people today. **Sean**: Hey, we've learned that being contrarian gets views, so let's do it. **Andrew**: But if you think about one of the big justifications that people come up with NASA is all the spinoffs. They say all of that research money that has gone into NASA, which actually isn't that much in the grand scheme of things, it has led to so many things that now better our lives because it's the unexpected breakthroughs that trickle out into society. **Sean**: Absolutely. **Andrew**: Exactly the same goes for the weird, wild experiments like this Tesla car. It's the spinoffs that come out that actually have the impact. **Sean**: Yeah. **Andrew**: Even though the initial thing may be the craziest, stupidest idea that you can imagine. **Sean**: Yep. Absolutely. And this, again, this is a call we've made, I don't know how many times over our past hundred plus episodes would be, this is also where I'm like, I would like to see more from universities and governmental sort of open research labs doing this, where those ideas, those patents, whatever would be accessible and not locked up under individually owned IP and things like that. But no, and so I don't know how accurate this is, so I should fact check this, but I had Claude run down the, because I said, I was like, I want examples of how long the flying car trope has been around. And it goes back like to before there were cars. So like 1917, really, the roadable aircraft. **Andrew**: I love that. Before there were cars, there were flying cars. **Sean**: To show you how deep we've had this, this desire, but I think it goes deeper that like the true desire, I think if you go back is for flight, right. Is to have that— but if it goes back, even, like, notably in 1940, Henry Ford saying, "Mark my word: a combination airplane and motorcar is coming," right? And so then you can trace this all the way along to today where we have flying things— cars, no. But also, because I was curious as well. So again, just real quickly, some of the stats out of the science project of the new Roadster. So when it hits, so again, so super fast cars, again, car speed is usually measured on its zero to 60 miles per hour. The time it takes to get to— from zero to 60 miles an hour, or in other things, you'll see it, how quickly can it do the quarter mile time trial? Anything under three seconds is like super fast, whatever. Like exotic sports cars start getting into the low twos. You might, and then of course you get into like Formula One cars that are, you're getting into like the one second, sub one second, whatever. This particular Roadster with all that gas gets this to zero to 60 in 0.81 seconds, pulling 3.4 Gs to do so. So then I was also curious, because I'm like, at what point, like, what does the human body tolerate for, you know, because already you get into any EV, not a souped up Tesla, not a souped up Mach-E, whatever. You hit the gas pedal, the accelerator on that thing, and it throws you back. **Andrew**: Oh, I know, yes. **Sean**: Because the acceleration is instantaneous. And even now, without going this route, the cars that we can just buy right today have insane amount of power. Like there's, you know, it's not hard in a commercially available EV between Ford, Tesla, and General Motors to get an EV that has 700 plus horsepower and torque behind it. No one needs that much. Now, it's fun as hell, but no one needs it. **Andrew**: But this is also the other side of this, because I struggle to understand why that is a great thing. **Sean**: I know you do. **Andrew**: So we're two sides of the divide here. To me, there is such a lack of finesse and sophistication with just focusing on speed and power. I want something way more than that. I want the lyricism of a car that does what it does when you want it to do it, not just raw power. **Sean**: Well, also, it's interesting because, again, why not add another thing that people can come at us about? But also, what you raise is also an interesting sort of difference in approach between, especially like the European, especially British mindset between what makes a performance car. **Andrew**: Drivability versus power. **Sean**: Right. Versus the, and I'm going to go back to the muscle car era in the United States. So like, it's longer than this, but I'm going to call it the 1960s of the lead sled, right? Which is in lieu of having a touring performance car that can handle these twisty winding roads, in the United States, we have a prevalence of power and straight line. Make it go fast. Make it go. So the thrill was on, you know. **Andrew**: And I just look at your American cars and smile. **Sean**: You know, it's like, and they earned the term a lead sled for a reason because it could go, it was an incredible amount of power, could go up very fast in a very straight line. And that was it. The minute you had to turn, it was like, oh, now you get into body roll. Like, it was crazy. But I feel that that still is present today when you look at that comparison. And there is this, I would say, I mean, especially sort of like the, and I'll speak just from myself anecdotally, the American mindset is that lust for more power. **Andrew**: Or a very specific American mindset. Because I suspect it's only a subset of the population that really get excited about this idea of speed and power. It's not everybody. **Sean**: Yeah. But it, and for some people, when you get access to real speed and power, it is addictive. And, you know, I mean, I can speak to that firsthand. **Andrew**: I've driven with you. **Sean**: And again, did I need to spend that money to get that extra hundred horsepower or whatever? Of course not. But I had to, you know, but, but it is interesting because I was thinking about that today too. And I'm like, even going back in my own history of like cars I've owned in the past, even like Sean's infamous, you know, BMW, the Theseus' BMW that I've talked about on this show. I mean, that thing alone is souped up. I mean, I've always had this draw to, you know. And if there was ever a car that came in multiple engine options, you had to get the eight-cylinder big one. I don't know why. **Andrew**: So just so everybody knows, I'm sure Sean has already put his deposit down for the new Roadster. **Sean**: Yeah, right. I wish. I think this is a little outside my price range. It's like, well, because it's also, to be fair, I think Tesla has learned from the past where they have like, so there's the base model, then they have the Thrust, which is the one that has just the— but then the Rocket is invite-only, which is basically also a way of being like, well, if we don't invite anybody, they can't come after us. So, you know. **Andrew**: An invite-only car. What do you have to do to get an invite? **Sean**: That's a good question. **Andrew**: Show a really healthy… **Sean**: I mean, I'm just saying, you know, with a, I would say this, with someone with the equivalent skills as a Formula One driver, I would get in the passenger seat on this thing, if there even is one, to experience what that would feel like to flip that bad boy upside down. But yeah, no, it's wild. But I think, and I saw, I'm trying to find it now. I don't see— like, the reservation. It was staggering. I mean, it was like, you had to come ready to play with your money. **Andrew**: And again, you're only reserving. So it's not like sort of previous offerings where it was about a hundred bucks or something. **Sean**: Let's see, limited. Okay, all right. So Andrew, I'm going to need, I'm going to need a little bit of a loan here. I can cover this part. Due today: $5,000. I can cover that. Due within 10 days— I need a little, I need 245K within 10 days. **Andrew**: Wow. **Sean**: So, you know, and look, they take Apple Pay. But I was going to say, look at your screen. You could do it via Apple Pay. You know, honey, I've got some news. We're going to have to live in a box now because— **Andrew**: No, if this was our household, I'd be getting the phone call from my wife because she'd see it immediately. "Shut it down, shut it down." **Sean**: Okay. Oh yeah. So anyway, so that's— **Andrew**: This is a technology for the deeply privileged. **Sean**: Yeah, which is, it is funny though, that you can pay $5,000 today to what? Get bragging rights that you put a reservation down and how many people would come through within 10 days to pay an additional two— So basically within 10 days of reserving it, you got to pony up a quarter million dollars. **Andrew**: This is a Kickstarter, isn't it? **Sean**: Basically. **Andrew**: Basically they're raising the funds from people who are willing to put that money down. **Sean**: You can get your money back because, again, if you were in 2017, if whatever you put down for your 2020 Roadster, you're still waiting on it. So I don't know how that works because that's outside my range. And that's only for the Thrust version, by the way. The Rocket, there's no information. It just says invite-only. To be fair, if those Rocket versions ever make it to the light of day, no one's buying that. You're just being given that. And you know they won't be allowed on the road. No, absolutely not. I mean, could you? I mean, yeah, no. Even if you, like, what would you do? I guarantee the first time some fool would try to use it, it would be a catastrophe, right? **Andrew**: Yes. **Sean**: So, yeah. But maybe we'll see it in a movie. A stunt, you know? **Andrew**: Well, see, there you are. There you are, yes. **Sean**: Blade Runner 2199 or something, you know? I don't know. **Andrew**: Yeah, yeah. **Sean**: So. **Andrew**: But that was, yeah, that was fun. So I would say, I actually reckon we ought to wrap this up. **Sean**: Yeah. **Andrew**: But I do want to leave a teaser. **Sean**: We'll park it? Oh my god. Do you park those things? **Andrew**: No, stick it to the roof. **Sean**: Yeah, that's right. Stop it on the roof and pull the plug. **Andrew**: So I do want to sort of just drop a teaser, changing the subject now, because we said this was going to be a potpourri, which it's not. But I want to put this out there and come back to it, hopefully next week, because it's the new book by Ethan Mollick called Co-Existence, which actually was published today, the day we're recording. So the background to this, I'm just going to sort of tee this up. So Ethan is very, very well known as an experimenter. He's at the Wharton Business School. Very well known as an experimenter with AI and a commentator and writer about sort of everyday uses of cutting edge AI. And a couple of years ago, he came out with a book, Co-Intelligence, which I think we might've talked about. **Sean**: I think we did, yeah. **Andrew**: Very easy-to-read book. A good sort of couple of hour reads sort of introduction to how to think about AI. I still think it's one of the best books— **Sean**: Where you're like, especially if you're not someone who has already been chewing on this forever. **Andrew**: That's right, yes. **Sean**: It's a great entry point. **Andrew**: So today he came up with his next book, Co-Existence, which is about how do you sort of survive and thrive in an AI world? And again, it is written for sort of ordinary everyday people who are sort of trying to make sense of this AI world. I read through it this morning. Highly, highly recommended. Because it's pitched at a level which is accessible. I mean, if I was to write this, it would be way too academic, even though I try and not write academically. Ethan has this ability to write very humbly. I mean, he's honest about what he doesn't know, what he's not sure about. Very accessibly, very relevantly. So this is a book, I would say, if I was working with students who were struggling with understanding how to actually make sense of AI, I would say, ditch the classes, read this book, start playing. I will come back to it and talk about some specific things he says. **Sean**: I need to check that out also. And also, I've had the pleasure of meeting Ethan. So he came on a sister podcast, Learning Futures, a couple of years ago, but it was before the first book had come out. He's wonderful to talk to as well. So yeah, maybe see, especially if he's listening. We'll see if we can get him on. That'd be fun. **Andrew**: And again, just a final part of this teaser. What I love about this is the introduction to the book talks about how he wrote it with AI. And he's very upfront talking about how he struggled with using or not using AI and how he came up with his method. So this is a book that's actually written with AI, but with his very unique personal approach. **Sean**: So having not read it, I'm also just curious, and not to prolong the tease, but was, because someone else I know has written a book using AI, along with your co-author, Jeff Abbott. **Andrew**: Yes. **Sean**: I'm curious how his process— was it similar? **Andrew**: So his process was probably what I would do these days rather than what we did. And what we did was we primed the AI and then allowed it to do most of the writing. And then we went back and edited it. Ethan took actually quite a different approach, which we will talk about next time. but I think it's a very successful approach when I actually read what came out of it. **Sean**: Okay, yeah. And remind me, okay, the first book— remind me, the first book was called— **Andrew**: The first book was called Co-Intelligence. And now we have Co-Existence: The Next Phase of AI. **Sean**: And I wonder what the third installment will be. Co-Extinction, perhaps? Right, right, right. If you're open for notes, Ethan, I would say Co-Extinction has got a good ring to it. Maybe. Right, right. **Andrew**: But again, if you're trying to make sense of what's going on in the world, and you need something which is an easy read and makes sense and actually feels helpful, I would recommend it. **Sean**: Oh, absolutely. Very cool. Yeah, I'll have to check it out. I'll check it out. I'll put it on my Amazon cart momentarily. We'll check it out. Okay. Awesome. Yeah, well, I guess we'll park slash leave on the roof, jet up, backflip, whatever, this episode. But I like that we at least caught ourselves and didn't go for a two-hour-long single shot, and we'll call it there. But no, super fun. And again, I think one of the things that's important as we think about just, again, the concept of the car, this Tesla Roadster is again, to look definitely beyond what you see, but also to think more deeply about those connections. Again, returning to those key themes of allowing ourselves collectively, the room, the grace and the environment to play, to let go of those restrictions. Granted, you'll have to deal with them again later, But to have those opportunities to really nurture and that ability to play and to be unbounded and to shoot for the stars, literally, and see, you know, what happens. And, you know, well, you can certainly give that sophomore a talking to about the potential safety hazards of their science experiments. Don't squash their dreams by thinking big, you know. So, I don't know. Anyway, but again, as always, just a call or a plug out there for our devoted fans and new and old to, again, give us a rating, review, share, like, subscribe, all the things that you're— **Andrew**: Or complain. **Sean**: Or complain. We take complaints as well. But I am sure, but again, I would also be really curious of just other people's reactions. **Andrew**: Just to be clear, the email for complaints is seanleahy at— **Sean**: At nevergonnareadthis.com, you know? But you can actually email us. You can reach out at a little email address known as hello at modemfutura.com if you want to send us a long, if you want to step back in the nostalgic roots of typing a long form email, you can do that. But like I said, also a rating, a review or something like that would be greatly appreciated because the algorithms that are out there that help new people find our shows love to have those sort of interactions. But of course, if you don't like doing that stuff, you can always go kind of a different route. **Andrew**: You can subscribe. You just go to modemfutura.com slash sign up. And as we say every week, it just allows you to sign up for a weekly email saying, hey, there's a new episode to listen to. **Sean**: Yep. And it's a wonderful way to just to stay attuned to all the stuff that's going on. And yeah, so anyway, from us and Modem Futura, that's been it. It's been a great time. And we'll see everybody on the next episode of Modem Futura. **Andrew**: We'll see you then. **Announcer**: Demodulating signal. Modem Futura is a production of the Future of Being Human Initiative at Arizona State University. Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. To learn more about the Future of Being Human Initiative and all of our other projects, please visit us on the web at futureofbeinghuman.asu.edu. End transmission. --- *This is the full transcript of an episode of Modem Futura (), a podcast hosted by Sean Leahy and Andrew Maynard and part of the ASU Future of Being Human initiative (). The episode’s show notes and listening links are at . Listen via the links above, or watch it on YouTube ().*